My Reflection

I have really enjoyed writing this blog about separation of church and state. When I first encountered this topic, I never imagined that I would learn so much about it and see how other topics can be related. The debate over abortion is one such debate. Everyone knows about this debate and it's two sides, but I never thought about how it tied into separation of church and state. Through my later blogs, I have acknowledeged the fact that they are related and provided evidence to support this. Another such topic would be the debate over gay marriage. This is a very heated debate that is mostly rooted in religious beliefs. Like the abortion debate, the more I researched, I saw the connection and began to show that in my posts. The final subject that I found to be related to this would be over embryonic stem cell research. Like the other two subjects, this one is also debated over because of many religious beliefs and can be tied into this one large debate. Basically, one thing that I have learned throughout this debate is that church and state is not just one broad subject but actually a complex debate with a lot of different sub-topics. This website is one that is opinionated, but it does bring up good points about the subject and presents essays that you can read about this debate.

With my continued research over this subject, I found some interesting facts about things that I thought I knew all about already. One thing would be the issue of religion in public schools. One thing I didn't know was when the actual court decision was that took prayer out of schools. I had always heard my mom talk about it but never really got all the facts concerning it. I also didn't know that there could be some religious references still in public schools, but it just can't be regulated and the teachers can't try to persuade their students a certain way. This was very interesting to me when I found this out. Learning about the history behind "In God We Trust" being on the coins was also interesting to me. This was one thing that got me wanting to know more about separation of church and state so it was nice to find about the facts about it. Also, the fact that "under God" is in the pledge sparked my interest in this. The reason it did was that the pledge is usually required to be stated by school children and I often questioned this. All of these things that I found out about concerning the subject allowed me to acquire more knowledge over the issue.

In brief, I want to say thank you for taking your time to read over my blog and my several points, it is very appreciated. I have learned so much about this subject that I did not know at the start of my blogs. Also, I think that this has taught me how to express myself casually, but at the same time intellectually. Overall, I think that this blog has allowed me to grow as a thinker and a writer.

My thoughts on the polls

I wanted to take this time to thank you guys for being very responsive on the various polls that I have. This blog is going to go over the different results and is basically asking for your feedback as to why you think that the polls may have a specific outcome. On my first poll, I asked you to vote on whether you think church and state is really separated. The results, surprisingly, were that the majority of you thought that church and state was really NOT seperated. This was surprising to me because I thought that many people would think that these two things were seperated considering the growing diversity in our country. The second poll was whether prayer should be allowed in public schools. Although most of you chose the answer I thought you would choose which was no it shouldn't be, a number of you still chose that it should be in public schools. I thought that this was also surprising considering how people fought to get it out of schools. I would have thought it would have been a big difference between the two results. My question to you, my reader, is why do you think I received these results?

My Implications

As I have stated many times before, this debate of separation of church and state has been going on since the United States received it's independence. The reason I believe this has been such an on-going dispute is because of all the smaller subjects that have been coming up for the past few years. One such debate would be the issue of abortion and making it illegal. You will see in the link provided, that this is a very emotional subject that is mainly driven by people's religious beliefs. This link, though not a very scholarly website, allows you to see how people are really feeling about the issue. Many believe, that if we were to make abortion illegal, it will go against our constitutional rights. Another issue would be the legalization of gay marriage. In a 2003 article done by CNN Bush said that he believes that marriage is between a man and a woman. This fact brings up the issue of seperation of church and state because if he adds this to the constitution, then it will be a violation of many people's rights and, at the same time, show that religion does effect some of the things regarding our government. This would be apparant because although he doesn't come out and say that religion is his reason for this belief, it can be inferred that his religion has some kind of influence in this belief. The final issue is stem-cell research, mainly being the embryonic portion of it. In this article from CNN, Bush states that he vetoed the embryonic stem - cell research bill because "it crossed a moral boundary." Like the issue dealing with gay marriage, it shows that religion still has some effect on the things going on in our country. In brief, as long as thing such as these still are around, the huge topic of separation of church and state will continue to be around.

Is this realistic?

Honestly, this idea will always be that, an "idea". There will always be a disagreement between people regarding religion because of the constantly growing population of America. On top of that, our Country has always had some kind of religious roots within it. The reason for this is, many of our presidents have been Christians, especially the republican candidates. Furthermore, as in history, there will always be debates concerning how our country should be run. Everyone has their own opinions and it's impossible to try to make everyone happy. Lastly, many processes in our government, such as our President's prayer will always be debated. Things such as this suggest that our country is mostly Christian, and those who aren't often object such things being practiced on a national level. So, in brief, there is honesty no realistic way to make a distinct separation between church and state.

Class Links

With the issue of church and state still going on, there have also been other debates within this larger one dealing with abortion, gay marriage, and aspects of stem-cell research. A fellow blogger of mine has a blog dealing with abortion which is located here. I think that this is a good blog to look at because it raises the many aspects of why some people are for and against abortion. Also, many people are against it for religious reasons and this goes along with the fact they are trying to pass laws making abortion illegal but many believe that this would be a violation of our rights. Another blog is the gay marriage blog which talks about the legalization of it. Like abortion, this is highly debated because if they make it illegal, then they would implementing this law because of religious reasons, not political ones. The final blog is stem-cell research which is also controversial because it has aspects of it that may not be moral to many people that have strong religious beliefs. All of these blogs are highly debated because they raise questions about our government and religion.

Some links for you

The purpose of this blog is to provide you, my reader, with some links that are very useful for this subject and can provide you with some valuable information. To start off, I think that this site is a good one if you just want to look at the overall concept of this debate and see a view that isn't biased. It is also good to learn the history behind it and why it is such a big issue. As I have stated many times before, many people actually believe that the words "separation of church and state" are actually in the constitution when they are actually not. This website is a good site to go to if you want to get the actual facts about this myth. It is somewhat of an opinionated website, but at the same time, it is a good source to see a side of this issue that you may have not seen before.

If you want to learn about the sides of the debate then The Jeremiah Project is a good website to visit. It gives an overall view of the issue and talks about the two sides of the debate (those for separation and those against it). I thought that this was a good website when doing my research to see another side to the issue and see reasons for people's certain position on it. Along with this website, Americans United is also another website that is very opinionated but is still a good source of information. This website is sponsered by those for the separation of church and state and gives good facts to back up there reasoning for their stance.

Finally, the following list of links are good just if you want to learn some more facts about this issue. These websites are filled with interesting facts that you can look at. Some of them are biased but most are not: http://ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.php, http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/qmadison.htm, http://www.adl.org/Civil_Rights/ab/ChurchState.asp, http://www.defconamerica.org/our-issues/separation-of-church--state/index.html.

Also, here's a very interesting video I found on youtube:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA68TTISRi8

How can we STOP the debate?: My Theory

As I have stated many times before, the issue over the separation of church and state has been debated for more that 50 years. This article talks about this issue extensively. I believe that this is good in getting a feel for this issue and it's history. Seeing the article, it is clear to see that this has been an issue for a long while, so what is needed to bring an end to the debate? My theory on answering this question is that all America needs to do is come to an understanding. By understanding, I mean that everyone has to realize that realistically we can't make everyone happy, but we can basically "agree to disagree." Religion can never be totally "erased" from our government because our country was built by those with religious beliefs and this can be seen in everyday items such as coins. At the same time though, with immigration increasing as the years go by, so will the diversity of religious practices. Because of this, there is no way that the government can force one religion onto the country and this includes prayer in public schools which has become a major part of the debate. This issue was addressed in a previous blog, but to summarize, prayer isn't BANNED from public schools, but it is simply not FORCED onto children.

Along with coming to an understanding, the government has to also take a definite stand on the issue. Often times, it says one thing, but then practices something totally different. By this I mean, our government constantly says that there isn't any religious references within it, but when catastrophes happen such as 9/11, government officials always seem to mention a reference to "God." Also, "God" is still being put in legal documents such as the U.S. codes which were written in 2006. With these contradictory positions on the issue, there is no way the debate can ever be resolved, unless they come to an end and the government becomes consistent with it's position on the debate.

Extreme Christians

Those that are on the side of not having church and state separated are usually those that are known as radical or extreme Christians. They usually want total control over the government. When I say "total control" I mean that they want our country to basically have a regulated religion and that religion would be Christianity. They are known for their crazy preachings and look down on the conservative Christians which do not do things that they do. Their stances on many of the issues such as gay marriage and abortion are all on the opposing side of the issue. When it comes to separation of church and state, they are very strong in their beliefs and often think that the way America is now will make us as a country "doomed to hell". When I think about these people, as a Christian myself, I'm in dis-belief about their stance and many of the things they preach about.

Religion and School

The issue of Church and State separation is one that includes many sub-topics within this large topic. One such issue is the controversy over religion and school. When prayer was banned from public schools, there was a lot of people that were happy about the decision, but on the other hand, there were many people that was upset about the decision. What many people don't know about the decision however, is that prayer is not banned from school, but state-enforced prayer is. Even with this fact, some still believe that religious references do not belong in schools. This is largely due to the increasing diversity of America. As more and more immigrants come, the number of religions besides Christianity is going to increase. On the opposite side, are those who believe that taking prayer out of public schools was a mistake. Those on this side are largely Christians, if not all.

In my opinion, I don't believe that prayer should be forced in public schools, that's why there are private schools. In public schools, people are from diverse backgrounds with many different religious beliefs, and some may not have any beliefs. With this fact, I don't believe that if you are not of the Christian faith, you shouldn't be forced to say a prayer to a God you may not believe in. However, I don't believe that all religious references should be taken out of school. I think that it is necessary to teach such things in schools because it's always good to have knowledge about different things besides your own culture. In brief, religion isn't something that should be "shoved down someones throat", but it should be acknowledged in all public schools.

So Let's Break the Two sides down......

In my other blogs, I basically gave an overview of this highly debated issue and also gave my opinion on the subject. The purpose of this blog however, is to present both sides of the argument, give their reasons for that particular position, and state my overall opinion of Separation of church and state.


The First Amendment is the root of this entire debate. Many that read this amendment get confused over the true meaning of it. Some believe it states that there should be no religious references in politics or in the government. However, the true meaning of the amendment is that everyone is free to worship as they want to. This confusion "scratches" just the surface of this debate. When looking deeper into the issue, it's found that many also believe that the words "separation of church and state" actually appear in the Constitution when they actually do not. The fact that they do not appear, makes many believe that there doesn't have to be a separation. On the other hand, many still believe that there still should always be a separation because everyone is free to their own religion and/or beliefs.



Those on the side for the separation of church and state are usually liberalists and many of them are those that are known for "bashing" Christians. A detailed description of their side of the issue can be seen in this article. In the article, you can see how many on this side of the issue are those who aren't Christians and some may be atheists. Don't be mistaken into thinking that these are the only people for the separation of church and state ,but those groups will be discussed later on in the blog. Those that are on this extreme side of the debate believe that there shouldn't be any kind of reference to God in any public places such as school and government. In fact, there was once a time when prayer was allowed in public schools, but in 1962, this was banned from schools along with bible reading. Many fight for the removal of all religious references in Government for the fear of our country possibly establishing an official religious practice.


Although there are these radical groups that are known for "bashing" Christians, there are groups that support separation of church and state that have basis on the fact that having religion influencing the government is unconstitutional. One such group is DefCon. This groups purpose is to speak about how religion shouldn't be FORCED onto people and everyone has a right to practice as the want. Another such group is "Americans United for the Separation of Church and State". This group of people are more active and are often involved in many government proceedings and issues dealing with religion and it's possible influence. Many of their issues are laid out here. On this page, you will find that they have broken down where they would like the separation to be and how they want it to be. Like the DefCon group, they are less radical than the "Christian hating" opposers and simply want everybody's right to practice freely respected.


The total opposite side of this debate are those people who are the "radical" christians. These Christians are known for their ultraconservative views. They want relgious control over everything from the government to public schools. If you want to read about such christians, you can visit these two sites. Both of those sites have links that you can click on to read about their ways and their beliefs. As you will see, they are very "extreme" on their thoughts of how America should be run and their thought on the fate of America. As a student of UNC-Chapel Hill I have witnessed their preachings. Often times, they speak about how America is "doomed" to hell because of it's acceptance of homosexuality, fornication, etc. These issues are all brought up with the subject of separation of church and state because, for instance, gay marriage is something that is regulated by the government, but it hasn't become nationally legalized mainly because of religious views. These groups are very conservative and, like the extreme liberalists, they are often frowned upon by many Americans that aren't apart of these groups.



So, what's my position on this whole topic? Well personally I believe that there can never really be total separation of church and state for several reasons. The first thing that pops to my mind is the pledge of allegience. As you can see, it clearly states "under God." I'm not necessarily saying that it has a Christian reference specifically but it does have some kind of religious reference. It wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't required by many states to recite this in school but as seen here, it is required in many states. Although prayer isn't allowed in schools, it's easy to see that there is still some kind of religous reference in our public schools. References to "God" can also be seen in many legal documents such as the U.S. Codes. On this website you can see an actual breakdown of the number of times that it is mentioned. This fact proves that there are still religious references in government. Another point to my position is the use of "In God We Trust" on coins. In the link provided, it talks about the origin of the statement and why it was put on the coin. This has also given rise to another debate on whether it should be on the coins. On the particular website given, it shows the pros and cons of having it remaining on the coins. There are even more examples such as having to place your hand on the bible in court, and the president having to say "so help me God". If you want to read about this you can visit these sites. There is so much more to say on why I believe there can never be true separation of church and state but that would be an endless blog. So if you would like to read someone else's view on this, you can visit the following blogs:

http://www.samefacts.com/archives/policy_briefs_/2007/03/separation_of_church_and_state.php

http://fairlane.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/the-separation-of-church-and-state/

What would our country be like?

Let's imagine for a second that our country had no type of religious connections to it....how would America be? Would it be the same, or would some things about our country be totally different. The real answer to this can never be really known, but I believe that honestly, many things about our country would be different. For instance, the total judicial system would be conducted differently. Right now, when someone takes the stand in a court, they have to put their hand on the bible and make a pledge stating that they are not lying on the stand. If our government was totally separated from all religious affiliations, this section of the court proceedings would not have occured. Not only that, but also many of the reasons for the rulings would not exist. As of now, most of the decisions are indirectly related to the bible, such as the rule "eye for an eye" which is often the justification behind the death penalty.
Not only would things be changed in the court system, but also in legal documents. Many of the documents that the government has written up has the word "God" mentioned in it several times. If this didn't exist, how do you think our country would be? Would it be as free as it is today? Would people in our country live their lives the same? How different would all of our lives be?

What does this mean?

With the separation of church, this would mean that there would be no religious references in political documents, proceedings, or any religious mention in public schools. Although people would like this to happen, in actuality, this type of regulation would never completely work. As I stated before, our country was built by Christians and Christianity is our dominant religion. If you were to try to totally get rid of all religious references in politics, many political leaders wouldn't have a basis for many of the arguments. Not only in politics, but also in schools, there aren't ways to escape religion. Personally, I can name many discussions that I have had in high school regarding religion even though technically, you aren't supposed to speak of it.

Even in presidential elections, when certain subjects were adressed such as gay marriage, many candidates use religion as a basis of their opinion on the subject. Basically, if separation of church were to become apart of the constitution, then simple things like this wouldn't be able to happen.

An ongoing debate: My take on It

For several years, there has been an ongoing debate on the issue of separation of church and state. Some people believe that these words actually appear in the constitution, but actually, they do not. This has been one reason for this debate. Along with this misconception, the confusion over Thomas Jefferson's words in the First Amendment has contributed to this debate. He stated: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment or religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." What he meant by these words is that there should be no dominant religion in America and every person has the right to serve in any way that they please. Unfortunately, people believe that these words mean that government will totally separate itself from the religion. This confusion has created two separate sides of the debate. One side saying that religion should not be separated and the other side saying it should.

Personally, I believe that no matter how much people want it to be, church and state will never really be separated. The basis for this thought would be the mention of "God" in many of our countries documents and the Pledge of Allegiance. Also, the basis of our country was built on many of the principles of Christianity.